Eric Petersen is Senior Account Manager at RH Borden and Company, a Salt Lake City-based firm applying advanced sensor technology and data-driven solutions to modernize wastewater and sewer systems across the US. Eric brings 20 years of architectural experience, leveraging his expertise in digital modeling, problem-solving, and collaboration with city officials to optimize infrastructure maintenance and data-driven decision-making. Serving Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming, he specializes in tools like the Sewer Line Rapid Assessment Tool (SL‑RAT) and condition-based inspection methods, providing technical expertise and client support for acoustic assessments and manhole evaluations.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

• [1:29] Eric Petersen introduces RH Borden’s unique approach to modernizing wastewater infrastructure
• [5:02] The connection between Eric’s background as an architect and his current work in wastewater management
• [7:45] How digital twins and GIS technology are transforming wastewater system maintenance
• [11:58] The role of acoustic technology in diagnosing potential blockages in sewer pipes
• [15:34] How to leverage digital scanning to model underground infrastructure for cities
• [18:50] Understanding and addressing the challenges of inflow and infiltration in wastewater systems
• [21:33] Overcoming resistance to new technology in wastewater management
• [27:03] Misconceptions about wastewater infrastructure and the impact of fats, oils, and grease (FOG)

In this episode…

Municipal wastewater systems are facing significant challenges, including aging infrastructure, inefficiencies, and increasing demand for modernization. As cities look for ways to maintain and upgrade these critical systems, how can they improve their operations while managing costs and minimizing disruptions to residents?

Eric Petersen, an expert in wastewater infrastructure management, suggests that adopting innovative technologies like digital twins, GIS (Geographic Information Systems), and acoustic sensors can greatly enhance the effectiveness and efficiency of wastewater system management. By using digital twins, cities can create accurate, real-time models of their infrastructure, enabling better decision-making and maintenance scheduling. Eric also emphasizes the importance of quickly identifying problem areas using sensors, such as those that detect inflow and infiltration, to prevent costly system failures and help optimize resources.

In this episode of Saving Our Sewers, Chad Franzen interviews Eric Petersen, Senior Account Manager at RH Borden. Eric delves into digital twin technology, GIS mapping, and acoustic sensing to modernize wastewater systems, improving efficiency and reducing maintenance costs. He also explores the challenges of implementing new technologies, the growing issue of fats, oils, and grease in sewer systems, and how data-driven solutions can streamline city infrastructure management.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Jon Borden on LinkedIn 
• RH Borden and Company
• Kwin Peterson on LinkedIn 
• Eric Petersen on LinkedIn 

Quotable Moments: 

• “We’re using this concept, which is a fairly new idea of digital twins, to model specifically wastewater infrastructure.”
• “The digital twin idea helps them get past that. It’s just trying to work with systems.”
• “The idea is the same: if we had a snapshot in time of taking an image and a digital assessment.”
• “We think the trade-off of doing a study and solving problems is well worth it.”
• “You monitor the water level in the manhole during a dry spell, and compare it to wet weather.”

Action Step:

1. Implement digital twin technology for wastewater infrastructure: This allows cities to model their systems and respond quickly to emerging issues.
2. Utilize GIS mapping tools: Capturing data in digital form helps manage infrastructure, track changes, and share information efficiently.
3. Adopt acoustic sensing for rapid pipe assessments: Quickly identifying blockages reduces unnecessary maintenance, saving time and resources.
4. Monitor inflow and infiltration using water level sensors: Identifying where extra water enters systems enables better management and prevents overloading treatment facilities.
5. Engage with neighboring cities to share best practices: Learning from others’ success stories can help overcome skepticism and accelerate technology adoption.

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by RH Borden, the leading service provider for innovative technologies that modernize wastewater collection system maintenance.

As Smart Cities evolve, RH Borden empowers communities to leverage data, optimize maintenance resources, and improve system performance. Their digital twin solutions help teams work more efficiently, minimize redundant maintenance, and pinpoint infrastructure issues with precision.

Learn more about how RH Borden is shaping the future of wastewater system management by visiting rhborden.com.

Powered by Rise25 Podcast Production Company

Episode Transcript:

Intro 00:03

The US Infrastructure Report Card gives the nation’s wastewater systems a grade of D+. Welcome to the Saving Our Sewers podcast, where we feature the practices, tools, technology, and ideas that will save our sewers. Let’s get into it.

Eric Petersen 00:20 

Eric Petersen here hosts the show, where he features city leaders, innovative engineers, and infrastructure experts who are shaping the future of rapidly growing municipalities through smarter technologies and data-driven solutions. This episode is brought to you by RH Borden, providing innovative technologies that modernize wastewater collection and system maintenance. As cities evolve, RH Borden empowers communities to leverage data, optimize maintenance resources, and improve system performance. Their digital twin solutions help teams work more efficiently. Minimize redundant maintenance and pinpoint infrastructure issues with precision.

Learn more about RH Borden or how RH Borden is shaping the future of wastewater system management by visiting RHBorden.com. Today I have Chad Frandzen here of Rise25, who’s done thousands of interviews with successful entrepreneurs and CEOs. And we have flipped the script, and he’ll be interviewing me. So Chad, welcome to the show.

Chad Franzen 01:29 

Hey, thanks so much, Eric. It’s great to be here. Great to talk to you. Hey, I’m looking forward to kind of getting to know you a little bit and letting your listeners get to know you a little bit better and finding out a little bit more about RH Borden. Can you just tell me, as we get started here briefly, what RH Borden does and what makes your approach unique?

What makes RH Borden’s approach unique?

Eric Petersen 01:51 

Well, in a nutshell, I’m going to say RH Borden is data-centric. We’re using this concept, which is a fairly new idea of digital twins, to model specifically wastewater infrastructure, to help cities become much more aware of the conditions they have and to be able to respond to them in a timely manner. So digital twins, I think that’s going to be the catchphrase for that.

Chad Franzen 02:18 

So you personally, you had been an architect, and now you’re working with RH Borden. Kind of tell me how what led you to work in this utilities and infrastructure space?

Eric Petersen 02:30 

Well, it kind of back to architecture real quickly. That’s a digital twin-centric business. We use computers all the time to develop drawings and three-dimensional models and all kinds of things that describe a building in fairly great detail. And so the rolling over of that concept into, into wastewater structures really wasn’t a very big leap. But the skill sets that I learned as an architect of 20 years was basically the the ability to conceptualize problems and challenges, devise a plan to solve the problems and challenges, and then go through the the, I guess, the hoops or gyrations of working with all kinds of different consultants, even city managers and building departments, and that which isn’t much different than what we’re doing right now in the RH Borden world.

It happens to be that we work a lot with public works directors and managers of wastewater systems, and they have certain sorts of goals and desires to reach, you know, efficiencies that we see out in the future. And so our my ability, I guess, when I talk to, you know, city officials and things like that, I think I’ve honed a few skills in that regard and just kind of know their mindset. You know what? What are their challenges. And then what are the ultimate outcomes they desire?

So the architects are kind of thought of as, as a symphony director with a lot of different sections working together. And we may have fewer and smaller symphonies now, but the same idea, we’re just trying to work with individuals, with systems that can cause some grief and stress. And, the digital twin idea helps them get past that. So, you know, as an architect, it was certainly interesting to get to know all kinds of different aspects of the building industry. And now I’m rolling that curiosity into the wastewater world.

Chad Franzen 04:47

That’s interesting. I would have thought that I guess you just picture, like architects maybe sitting in a room by themselves and designing a brilliant piece of architecture, and then submitting it to somebody else and not really having to relate to anybody. But you’re saying architects are well prepared for this? This type of situation?

Eric Petersen 05:02

I would agree. Any, any architect that has gone through the process from A to Z. You’re right. There might be a few that sit in their ivory towers and just think up amazing drawings. But I’ve been through the process of, of zoning permitting and, and then all the way through final closeout of buildings.

And so you gotta, you gotta walk the walk and talk the talk with a variety of different people to help them see your vision, first of all, and then help them and also negotiate. I mean, to, to work with specifically building officials, to work with building codes and, and solving problems that way. And as things arise during construction, working with contractors and helping them resolve issues within the construction process. So yeah, it’s pretty involved. And I think that’s lent itself very nicely to what I do right now.

Chad Franzen 05:52

Yeah. Awesome. So what are some of the core technologies that you work with at RH Borden?

Eric Petersen 05:58

Well, so one of the core technologies is pretty ubiquitous in, in the world of, design and infrastructure management. And that happens to be the tool of GIS or ArcGIS geospatial information systems. They’re basically maps. And these maps allow us to capture data, record data, share data in perpetuity. So once you capture things, this can be saved.

And and and as things evolve, changes can be documented and updated. And that what it allows us to do is to give a digital version of going back to that digital twin idea of digital Copies of systems, in this case wastewater systems. And so I would say that’s probably the primary communication tool that we use to disseminate information back to cities. There’s a couple of different pieces of technology that we use to capture the data. And one of those, I’ll give you a couple rundowns here.

The first one would be acoustic Transmissive acoustic technology. So we have this whiz bang tool that was developed by this company by the name of infosec. And the way it works really cool is we send sound down sewer pipes. And the virtue of doing that is that it’s very rapid. Meaning we put a sensor on one manhole and another sensor on the adjacent manhole, and we run this device or this tool that emits some sound, and then we listen for it on the manhole that is away from the source.

What that does is it gives us a quick score of how well the sound travels down that pipe. And we can do a kind of a correlation of how well that sound transmits to the flow ability of that pipe. And we can predict if that pipe has a brewing blockage or something that’s going to be causing either problems now or in the near future. And we do that so fast, it takes about a minute and a half to two minutes to do that test. And what the data you get out of it is to know, does that pipe need to be cleaned or does it not need to be cleaned?

And that is revolutionary because now we can send out lightweight, super fast, cost effective devices to assess a pipe. And then once we get the let’s, let’s say we’ve got a good score, we can say we’re going to skip that one as far as maintenance is concerned, but if we got a bad score, then we would be able to go into we’d be able to send that information to others that have a heavy duty cleaning equipment, big trucks and hoses and lots of water and blocking traffic and emitting diesel fumes and clean that, clean that section of pipe. But if we don’t have to clean that section of pipe, we save all that wear and tear on the truck, the blockage of traffic, the fumes, the manpower it takes to to run that vehicle and that kind of thing. So that’s kind of the first piece of technology that we’ve, that we’ve, we’ve introduced in, in bulk to the systems or the organizations that we work with, the cities and districts. The second piece of technology is digital scanning or digital modeling.

And so we have repurposed some. It’s funny enough, in the architectural world, there’re some pretty amazing scanners, and we have repurposed some of those devices and tools and technologies into scanning underground structures. And what that allows us to do is to develop a high resolution image of manholes and any other underground structures that we can get access to. It allows us to be able to capture a very high resolution, three dimensional model of that of that artifact and give that data to the cities and districts that can kind of snapshot in time about what they have. We also include some very high resolution videos with it.

And so not only can we have the digital point cloud of that structure, but we also have a video of it. And what that allows you to do is it allows you to do this kind of idea. I’ll use a terrible analogy. Oh, well, I don’t know if it’s a terrible analogy. I’ll use an analogy of the dentist.

So the dentist that I go to and my dentist is very much into taking x rays of my teeth every year to monitor degradation within my teeth. Now teeth and manholes are not exactly the same thing. So but but the idea is the same is that if we had a snapshot in time of taking an image and a digital assessment of a manhole, then we could scan it again in the future and we could see the difference between the two and, and monitor how much degradation has happened and how fast it’s happening. So who knew manholes fall apart? I didn’t know that before I really got into this industry.

But everything needs to be maintained somehow. And this digital twin idea, this digital modeling, allows us to have an x-ray, if you will, of that asset at one point in time where we can compare it to the same to itself in the future. And so that’s a nice little piece of technology that we’ve really hung our hat on as well. And then the third thing is we’ve seen a real need for the control or the understanding of inflow and infiltration. And what is that?

Well, that happens to be extra water that gets introduced into the wastewater system and burdens the wastewater treatment facilities. Now, if I told you wastewater systems are leaky, you’d say, oh, that’s gross. And maybe it is, but it really is leaking in and not out. Which sounds really weird, but that’s actually the burden of inflow and infiltration is water that’s intruding into the system. So we’ve searched high and low and very hard to make sure that we can service that particular In the wastewater world.

And the way we do it is with what we call water level sensors. And that allows us to monitor the water level in each manhole that has a sensor in it. And the idea of the concept is pretty simple. You monitor the water level in the manhole during a dry spell. And then you compare that water level for wet weather events.

Rainstorms specifically. And surprisingly enough, there’s a there’s a change in some of those manholes. And you’re looking for the manholes that have the worst change from one to the next, or from one dry period to the wet period. And as you start comparing those to each other during those weather events, you can start pinpointing where the inflow and infiltration is happening the most. That is like having x-ray vision on your wastewater system.

Chad Franzen: 13:37

Nice.

Eric Petersen: 13:37

And that is a pretty amazing concept. A patented concept now. And we’re seeing amazing results across the country with this. It’s almost magic. It’s so cool what we’re doing.

Chad Franzen 13:53

So yeah, I was just going to say, I’m guessing the information that this technology provides is new to the people that you’re, that most of the people that you deal with, whether it’s city council members, city engineers, employees, whatever.

Eric Petersen 14:05

Yes, it is , it is totally new information because of the way we’re doing it. We’ve never seen the density of sensors that are installed and the veracity of the data coming out of it. We run these studies for months at a time. And so we’re seeing a lot of different weather. We’re seeing a lot of dry spells so we can verify and reverify those patterns, and then we can really give some very good recommendations to the managers of those systems, which means that at that point that they need to go out and and do a little more exploration, but only in, you know, a few hundred feet of pipe and, and figure out what’s going on with. And they can do that with standard cambering and, and those technologies.

But they’re not you know, the needle in the haystack has been found. Now you go after and pull the needle out and fix the problems. And usually those are, you know, pipes that have joints that are coming apart or maybe, you know, collapsing a little bit in some areas and it’s just a matter of understanding where to go. So we’re shaving a 100 mile system down to one mile. Go after that.

Chad Franzen 15:25

Is there maybe a recent project where the technology made a big difference or made a big impact that you can talk about?

Eric Petersen 15:34

Yeah. We recently conducted the largest study that we’ve ever heard of in Great Neck, New York. And I’ll be honest, I don’t have the numbers off the top of my head what this is. But it was 400 and about 60 different manholes that we studied at one time. And so we had a huge blanket of these sensors put out in place, and we found dozens, maybe, maybe 3 or 4 dozen different locations where I and I were very high and present during rainstorms.

And so we went from 460 manholes down to maybe 30 or 40 different manholes. And that gives them now such a much more surgical way of approaching the problem that they’re facing. They knew they had it. I mean, at the treatment plant, when it rains, it just overwhelms them. And I was like, man, if we just knew where to go, we could start.

And now they have that information and they’re just going to chip away at it rather than, like I said, go to 100 miles of pipe. And maybe in this case it’s more like ten miles of pipe. So they’ve really, really been able to narrow in on what’s going on. And, and in Great Neck, New York, they probably have a fair amount of, of old, old collection system pipe. And you know, they could say, oh, all of it’s bad.

Well, now we’ve given them where the worst is.

Chad Franzen 17:12

Yeah. Nice. So I’m guessing that this technology and the data driven approach to it can show cities, maybe things that they need to work on or things that they’ve been working on, but probably aren’t as necessary. Like it could make it more efficient, more efficient either way.

Eric Petersen 17:32

Absolutely. Specifically for the SL or the acoustic technology that that really does, you know, y clean pipes that are flowing. Well, some systems managers figure, well, we’ll clean every pipe just because we’ll, we’ll have a, you know, a warm sense of doing something. Well, I appreciate that. But if you only had, you know, if you only had the capacity to clean just a few pipes, wouldn’t you want to go after the ones that really need it?

So yeah, we’re increasing efficiency, number one. And then we’re bringing new insights that just haven’t been available. You know, from the manhole scanning and the and the, the what we call wall analysis or wall comparisons and the Eni studies. Those are those are new new views, if you will, to their wastewater systems that we we’re we’re figuring we ‘re very innovative technologies and aren’t very widely known. And so hey that’s what I want to share.

Chad Franzen 18:39

So I’m guessing once cities decide that they’re going to use this technology, they’re pretty excited about the information they’ll get. What challenges might they face when implementing the new systems?

Eric Petersen 18:50

Well, one of the things that that we see pretty frequently is, is just the first challenge is understanding. And so that’s on us as a company to make sure that we are explaining the process and the technologies the best we can. And then so there’s a little bit of resistance to say, well, we’ve always done it this way, so why would I want to change it? I’m like, well, you know, we you know, I guess, you know, the answer is we used to use typewriters and now we use word processors. And even now.

Today we use ChatGPT. So if you want to stay stuck in the past and and and and and usually I would say one of the challenges is kind of the slow moving nature of change within these kind of somewhat manual operated systems. You know, digital stuff doesn’t happen a whole lot in wastewater treatment. It certainly happens at the wastewater plant where they’re running pumps and doing data analytics a lot. That’s trending that direction a whole lot faster than the collection system and the pipes under the roads.

So adoption is a little slow in that regard, it’s just like, well, we just we’ve been okay the way we’re doing it. But the answer is in that and along those lines is, are you having a hard time finding people to fill job slots? And the answer is yes. And they’re like, well, do you need as many people if you have the data to drive better decisions. And the answer is maybe we don’t.

Maybe. Maybe we had more data we could do. We could do more effective things with the number of people that we have. And I guess so the, the, the another barrier is, is a little bit of, you know, budgeting the, the wastewater systems sometimes are a bit underfunded. And the challenge with that is, is they are they I don’t want to say blow up, but they get the problems, get big fast.

If you continually neglect the problem or the challenges that are growing and under the streets, if you will. So kind of helping wastewater managers understand that kicking it down, kicking the problem down the road or kicking it down the pipe, I guess in this case it is only going to cost more and more as we go on. So budgeting is certainly an issue. And we see real value in taking care of a problem while it’s small rather than waiting until it’s big.

Chad Franzen 21:33

Is resistance to change. The biggest hurdle is there. Is there any maybe skepticism of new technology like.

Eric Petersen 21:41

Yeah, there’s a fair amount there’s a fair amount to that. I mean, when you tell people you’re using audible tones to, to predict pipe blockages, they kind of cock their head to the side and say, what? You got to think about it for a minute. You know, sound flows in, in, in waves and so does water. And so while it’s not a 1 to 1 analogy, it’s a pretty good indicator.

And the key is it’s just so darn fast. So yeah, there’s a little bit of skepticism with the technology the, the the water level monitors? Not so much. That seems to be something that kind of makes more sense right away. And probably the biggest resistance to the Eni studies with the water level sensors is probably budget there.

However, we also know that the treatment of water at the wastewater plants can be very, very costly. And so we think the trade off of doing a study and solving problems is, well, well worth it.

Chad Franzen 22:47

What do you do to overcome that skepticism?

Eric Petersen 22:50

Well, we try to invite different cities and district managers to neighboring cities that are doing these kinds of exercises and using our technology. We rely on a few champions, if you will, a few people that have had success with what we do and and we have a lot of repeat customers. Once we get them going, they’re like, wow, this is good stuff. So and so I guess a social proof is probably one of the biggest ways that we overcome this skepticism. You know, everybody kind of stands at the edge of the pool and sees the water cold.

And they’re like, I don’t want to jump in. And some brave souls will go for it. And then and then a few more follow. And so yeah, social proof is probably a very big part of how we get past some of that skepticism.

Chad Franzen 23:45

Are there metrics that you use to measure the success of a project?

Eric Petersen 23:50

Well, we do have a fair amount of data and information that comes out of projects. And I’ll give you an example of, of a city that, that we were using the acoustic technology with that really saw marked improvement. It takes a little bit of time, honestly. But one year we did an assessment for this, this company or the city, and we found out that about a third of their system was in need of some pretty significant cleaning work. And we said, well, let’s see if we can get past.

So they let me back up. They were trying to clean a quarter of their town every year, and they just weren’t being able to keep up with it. And we said, well, let’s add some technology to this and see if we can help out. So we assess the entire system and show them that they didn’t need to clean a third of their system, but more like, excuse me, a quarter of their system, but more like a third. And even then it was a little bit fuzzy.

They didn’t have to go quite that far. They said, could you get that much? Yes we could. So they went and cleaned that portion of town that the signals revealed that needed some help. And then we came back the next year and said, let’s see how you did.

And what was fascinating is they had about a 20% reduction in the poor scores of their system, the next assessment. And so they had to clean less pipe, which was phenomenal, without even cleaning, you know, all the pipes that were showing, they were in good condition. They didn’t, they didn’t have to touch that and they didn’t have to touch something they touched the year before. And we did the assessment again. And the third year we came back and said, let’s do it one more.

And they cleaned after the second assessment, let’s do it again. They had another reduction in the cleaning load on their system. So now they were cleaning somewhere around 15% of their city every year. And wow, we’re just like is this work? They’re like, oh yeah, this works great.

So now on a maintenance schedule, they’re able to pinpoint their cleaning activities on that 15% of the city that needs to be tackled, which they can get to and, and rely on the digital technology or the acoustic technology for that digital model to help them get past their staffing issues. But they just couldn’t get through there before. So that’s a great example of how a city has year over year seen the benefit of using acoustic assessment technology.

Chad Franzen 26:43

So I was telling another one of the hosts of this show, Quinn, that as far as I know, like my, my knowledge of wastewater is basically if my toilet or drain is not clogged, then everything is good. What what’s what would you say is maybe one misconception about municipal infrastructure that you wish more people understood.

Eric Petersen 27:03

Well, I think one of the things is that. I’d like to just bring out what I didn’t understand until I was. Involved in this, in this work is the impact of what I’ll call non non sewage. Material. And it’s a pretty significant thing.

There’s, there’s a, there’s a a a term or an acronym called fog fog fats oils and grease. And the introduction of these materials into wastewater systems is pretty pretty catastrophic. They call them fat fatbergs like an iceberg of fat, a fatberg. And they have a way of congealing and collecting in wastewater systems, even kind of tumbling through pipes and collecting like snowballs, if you will. And cause blockages.

In fact, there was a fatberg that was found in the sewer systems of London. That is tons and tons and tons of mass, all in one gigantic pipe. I can’t remember, it’s like three city buses long and eight feet deep, and it’s just massive. And that’s been collecting there for, you know, decades in the city in London and they’ve, you know, they’ve found it and they’re starting to chisel through it and they’re probably through it by now. But this is a few years ago, this fatberg.

But that’s the most extreme case I’ve ever heard of. But these kinds of things are found in all kinds of wastewater systems, especially near restaurants and places like that. So there’s technology to mitigate that. They have these things called grease separators and, and and such to help separate the grease from the water before it enters in. But the residents of communities just need to be aware that that let’s not pour the grease from the bacon and and and the oil from the, the scones you fry up.

Let’s just keep those things out of the sewer systems, put them in cans and bottles and dispose of them with the, with the, with the solid waste.

Chad Franzen 29:32

So sure.

Eric Petersen 29:33

I’ve changed my behavior somewhat because of that. I’m like, wow, this is a problem.

Chad Franzen 29:37

Yeah. You know, I guess I always thought fat and grease just affected your blood circulation. But it also.

Eric Petersen 29:43

Same way with the sewer lines.

Chad Franzen 29:45

Yeah. Wow. Cholesterol all over the place. Hey, you’re one of this is a relatively new podcast and you’re one of the hosts. Tell me what you’re most excited about with some of the episodes that you’ll be hosting.

Eric Petersen 29:57 

Well, you know, I’m excited about the opportunity to talk to some of our trusted partners to kind of get their feedback on what we do. I mean, and I think I want to have given them a voice in, in things that they want us to, to pursue. We’re always looking to innovate. We’re always looking to provide new services to delight the partner cities that we work with. And so I’m interested in hearing from them about some of their needs and how we might be able to fulfill them.

The studies that we’ve been talking about is a perfect example of that, as we were doing these SL rat acoustic technology studies, a lot of cities would say, well, this is really great. Can you help find my innie? And they use that term innie. Inflow and infiltration is what they were saying. But I didn’t know what they were talking about.

No, I don’t know how to solve that. And as I got more versed in the industry and knowing what they were desiring, that really pushed us as a company because we got that, we got that question so frequently, really pushed us as an organization to find a solution for this pernicious problem. So.

Chad Franzen 31:21 

Okay. Awesome. Well, we’ll look forward to future episodes. You have the perfect podcast voice. So that’s good.

Eric Petersen 31:29 

Oh, thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed chatting with you and I think we’ll have some great successes with this podcast.

Chad Franzen 31:39

Yeah, absolutely. It was great to talk to you today, Eric, and I’ll look forward to checking out future episodes. Thanks so much for having me.

Eric Petersen 31:45 

Okay.

 Chad Franzen 31:45 

Thank you so long, everybody.

Outro 31:48

Thanks for listening to the Saving Our Sewers podcast. We’ll be back next time with more insights you can use. Be sure to click and subscribe to get future episodes.